I'm not a moron. I know what the difference is. I was using an example of group prayer. I did not equate NASCAR to a government institution, so don't make it sound like I did. The point I was trying to make was that I don't do what the 'leader' says just because he says it. As in, when there is a group prayer or a moment of silence I don't do exactly what they say I don't bow my head just because they say it and I don't say their prayer. And I was asking if other people do the same.

And if you knew how to read and comprehend you would see that I said a more neutral term is appropriate, however we shouldn't have to be so pc about it. The audience should know that a moment of prayer is not designated as specifically for prayer to a monotheistic god or for prayer at all.

Rupchuk wrote:I'm not a moron. I know what the difference is. I was using an example of group prayer. I did not equate NASCAR to a government institution, so don't make it sound like I did.

No one has objected to group prayer in general, so I don't see your point to bringing up NASCAR in this discussion other than to compare the two.

And if you knew how to read and comprehend you would see that I said a more neutral term is appropriate, however we shouldn't have to be so pc about it.

The ONLY one being PC here is YOU. I conceded that I'd have no problem using the word prayer as long as it didn't make people feel like prayer was "expected", or that "non-prayer" was the choice of a "bad child".

I love how people raise the term "PC" when they want an excuse to be inconsiderate and thoughtless towards others.

Prayer is not a neutral term, it's a religious practice. It's a religious ritual. State institutions like public schools have no business in planning and executing and implimenting religious rituals.

Again, if a "moment of silence" does not preclude people from praying if they want... why the pretense that it does?

If the standard phrase includes "prayer, AND some variation of moment of silence, private circumspection, quiet reflection, meditation...", that's fine.

You're going through all this "if you EXPLAIN...".

Well, you know what? --- it isn't the school's job to explain...

"Pray", "poop your pants", "pick your nose", "meditate", "rub Buddha's belly', "put out a mat and kneel towards Mecca" "count backwards from 60", "boil a frog and site an incantation" "imagine your life 40 years from now", fantasize about Mary Jo's developing boobie in the palm of your hand or Freddy's tongue down your throat" .... whatever...

But to INFER and INSINUATE that it's a child's duty to "pray" at a certain point, is not appropriate and not necessary.

If a parent wants to tell their child to pray during that moment of silence, there's nothing stopping them from doing so. But to suggest to a child that it's their "time" to pray each and every morning... is, by default, promoting religion. It's not a public school's place to do that.

The audience should know that a moment of prayer is not designated as specifically for prayer

THEN WHY INSIST ON CALLING IT PRAYER??? It's just illogical. Prayer is NOT a neutral term.

OK... we're not talking about "an audience" here. We're talking about impressionable children who often just do what their elders tell them to do, or do things so that they're not unliked or unpopular, or they want to be favored by the principal or teacher.

The principal says "Pray ... but not necessarily really"??? "The rest of us are gonna pray ... but if you're want to be the odd sinner out, you don't have to?"

I think I've explained myself pretty clearly, if not then I apologize. I feel I've been more than reasonable. I've conceded on several points and when I do I'm 'illogical'. I ask a simple question to get how others feel about the issue and it is shot down as pointless. I'm done with this. I've had my fair share of brick wall arguments.

IMO religion is a personal choice. As such we would not expect our employer to have a minute prayer time each day so why should we expect our children to have a minute prayer time?

Australia has not embraced the religious fervour displayed by some Americans and coming from this type of social thinking I find it incomprehensible that religion should be a compusory part of anyones day to day life, especially vulnerable children. If an adult decides to accept that religion should be part of their lives then that is an adults right. I don't beleive that any child should have their future life shaped by religious belief.
IMO it creates guilt, doubt and fear in a young persons immature mind and can create greater problems in their later life. It is very difficult for a young adult whose mind reaches a certain point where they are capable of logical thought to equate the illogical religious dogma that they have been taught from such an early age.

Rupchuk wrote:I think I've explained myself pretty clearly, if not then I apologize. I feel I've been more than reasonable. I've conceded on several points and when I do I'm 'illogical'. I ask a simple question to get how others feel about the issue and it is shot down as pointless. I'm done with this. I've had my fair share of brick wall arguments.

No need to take things so personally. Just because someone disagrees with you and brings up points you can't sufficiently counter, does not mean you're personally being "shot down"... only your argument has been.

You have not explained why you insist on the use of the term "prayer". You have simply accused people of being "PC". That's not a genuine argument.

I have ALSO conceded that as long as "prayer" isn't the only term used, so that children don't feel pressured or influenced by their school authorities to do so, would be fine with me. I don't object to the word prayer in and of itself. So this accusation of "brick wall" is simply incorrect. Not to mention a convenient excuse to run away from an argument you're failing to sufficiently support.

In MY concession I have repeatedly asked a fairly simple question in various forms that you have refused to address. Why INSIST on using the term "prayer", or why isn't "moment of silence" sufficient for you?

I simply say that insisting on using "prayer" is illogical, because if you do, AND if you are considerate enough to consider the needs of all the children, you have to ALSO need to include additional terms such as "moment of silence", "quite reflection" "meditate" etc...

This is where we have come to agree. You wouldn't prohibit the term "moment of silence" and I wouldn't prohibit the term prayer. So we're not that far apart.

But insisting on using the term "prayer" is illogical because it seems like "extra" steps need to be taken and it creates unnecessary complications. Why insist on "prayer" when an all encompassing term like "moment of silence" would suffice without prohibiting ANYONE from prayer OR anything else they may choose to do with the time?

But, IF a school is going to invoke a religious ritual such as prayer, then they need to consider ALL religious POV's, not just one particular one. Therein lies the unnecessary and time consuming complications.

Once that happens, should everyone's school day be interrupted because of "Fard As-salat", where the students need to wash their feet before prayer and do so 5 times a day? Should schools build special washrooms for the religious so they can get clean before they say their prayers. (Because to pray to God while unclean would be a sin)

Should the school provide prayer mats for the prayer ritual in which some Muslims will kneel and pray towards Mecca?

Should everyone have to wait until the Catholic children finish their Hail Mary's and Our Father's on their Rosary beads?

I've simply pointed out that you're acting as if the word prayer is a generic term. As if this is just a PC game of semantics. It is not. Prayer is a religious ritual. I'm simply wondering if you would concede that very basic fundamental point.

I have pointed out that "prayer" is not a neutral term and you have done nothing to disprove that. Public schools should not be in the business of organizing religious rituals no matter how "harmless" it seems to you.

I have even gone so far as to share personal story with you on how the use of the term prayer during school was quite distressful to me.

All you have "explained" is that you think it's "PC" to be concerned about the term prayer. That's not a logical argument. It's just a snide accusation.